Matrix: Reloaded **possible SPOILERS**

**Ski** · June 8th, 2003, 08:15 PM

or maybe...just maybe the architect told Neo that going after Trinity was the wrong choice when in fact it WAS the way he wanted him to go.....

**erisesoteric** · June 8th, 2003, 10:13 PM

I still think there was a choice, with the architect. The choice wasn't simply let Trinity live, or rebuild the matrix. The reason the architect told him he had to sacrifice Trinity to become a god in the next matrix is Trinity represents humanity... the same humanity that he would be sacrificing to reload the matrix.

**tyledras** · June 9th, 2003, 05:16 AM

My roomate's dad pointed out some interesting things to me this weekend.

The Merovingian is three things: a) the guy who watched over the holy grail. b)a line of Franko-Prussian kings (Not too sure on the Prussian, very sure on the French) and c) a very odd heresy in the church stemming from Gnosticism.

The Gnostics had ths whole thing where they believed that within the gospels, and within the bible, were secret codes. Only those who knew these secret codes, or passwords, could get into heaven and salvation. Besides strange codes, they were also very heavy into mathematics. Figured it was the key to the universe. Yay.
So there was this weird offshoot group that believed in Christ, but believed he was not crucified and never rose from the dead. Not sure what the point was without the resurrection, but whatever, I'm Catholic. So for these guys, the whole code thing became even more important, until they grew into this lovely group who thinks the world is this giant construct, with God being this thing called the architect, and if you knew the secret code the world was yours!

So combine this with the guy in the movie. He's married to Persephone, Queen of the Greek underworld where all dead people go. This guy is also totally craven and given over to his appetites. He's got the code/math thing figured out, (ex. the cake scene where he has the "code" to make people do what he wants), and he has the key, or the keymaker, to the whole place, but all he wants is power so he keeps him locked in the basement.

With the Architects serious need to control everything, and his inability to do so --I think he has far less control over Neo than any previous anomoly, and he has all these secondary systems for the sole purpose of controlling those who can't be controlled by the primary system-- the architects need to control, and losing grasp on his control, and all the yucky monkey business he uses, seems to say he's the devil and all that Merovingian heresy stuff is "right out"

I'm not sure exactly what I think about it yet, and still trying to work through the possibility, but with the loaded names of all the characters, it seems to make sense so far.

My question is, can't they come up with a better name than Neo though? Neo-new... that's so.. unoriginal.

And the seriously gratuitous, unnecessary: rave scene where no one is wearing ANY underwear at all, sex scene (I did not want to see their naked butts), the calling of the gathering a "temple" and the speech a "prayer" and the rave a "service"--what are they worshipping in this temple in Zion? Only Bacchus seems appropriate to these raves, and even he had some kind of organization to him. The whole restaraunt scene, while probably having a point, seemed dumb to me. So did Neo's method of restarting Trinity's heart. So did Link's wife. So did all the old people wearing dreadlocks. I have to say, I only marginally see the point in dread locks anyway. When they become that insanely popular, I have to wonder about people's sanity.
And why can't Neo, if he sees and understands the code of the Matrix so well, why can't he walk through the 'walls', and more directly manipulate things around him?
If the world outside the Matrix is really just another Matrix, I'm kind of bothered, but it does make sense that it took him so long to see it there. After all, if he was totally set to just accept that reality, he wouldn't be looking for it. But it still irritated me.
I saw it twice, and I have to say, I didn't find it any better or more illuminating the second time around. I still like the albino twins...
But I'm also bothered by Neo's attitude. At times he seems totally cool with being the One. At other times, he seems to reject it entirely. But none of this questioning and searching stops him from showing off when he fights. What's the point of that? If you have to fight, Get in, do maximum damage, get out. The rest is all fluff.
Outside of the fight scene, what's the point of Smith's character in the second movie? His part could be done equally as well by semi intelligent agents.

My general feeling is that the brothers had this amazing idea, and needed a third person to help them really pull it off. I spend too much time in the movie being irritated instead of being wowed. I like mindless action entertainment. I like movies which have lots of layers and you have to think to find the meaning. I like movies which combine both. This just has too many gaps for me though.
Any one else feel this way? Or am I just a complete freak, likely to get tomatoed for slander?

**erisesoteric** · June 9th, 2003, 07:07 AM

There is a point to the mulitple Smiths, and it's on the edge of my brain, but it won't come out. I think I need to meditate on the issue or something. Neo is unique and singular, and he is indeed new. All of the other anomolies have chosen the reboot option, Neo has rejected godhood in confinement in order to save his people from slavery. Smith, on the other hand, is another sort of anomoly, the program that keeps itself alive instead of deleting itself. He sees himself as connected to Neo, he is Neo's polar opposite. Neo frees, Smith enslaves. Neo stands alone, Smith swarms. A smith takes raw material, and turns it into a finished product... perhaps that is what Smith sees himself as doing... taking the raw material of humanity and turning into a finished product, himself. Neo's focus is everyone, Smith's focus is himself (Me, me me, as his clones like to say.) Any thoughts on this?

I love your Merowhashisname idea. That's absolutely beautiful.

I think the tribal nature of the Zion settings is deliberate. These are humans that have rescued themselves from machines (or so they believe). They still USE machines, and understand that they NEED machines (as per the councilor's talk with Neo in the engine room), but socially, they want, they desire, to separte themselves from machines as much as possible, and celebrate their essential humanity.

On a meta-movie level, Zion is part of the Matrix, Zion is a celebration of humanity, the matrix represents everything that constrains us and keeps us bound, and the brothers may be using this to point out that our humanity isn't going to "release" us anymore than our technology is.

**Jelymo** · June 9th, 2003, 01:44 PM

who'd've known that this group of crazies would give me something to think about ... [img]wink.gif[/img]

i love the gnostic thing, that's just brilliant. that's so neat. i'm really starting to enjoy and appreciate the story a lot more, and the brilliance of the wachowski brothers. there is fluff, i'll agree to that, but i almost wonder if it's not intended to be fluff; if it's there to prove a point. like eris was saying way back, about Neo (yeah that is a dumb name, but anyway) getting a thrill out of the fight - maybe that's why those scenes are overdone; it's to make the point that he's enjoying himself way too much. logically it would be to get in, kick ass, and get out, but this is to make a point.

and i like the concept of Zion representing us, and our struggle to free ourselves from technology and how overpowering it [technology] is in society. look at the internet and television, and how they've taken over. children don't go outside and play and be creative anymore; they sit on their ass and play videogames, or watch barney, or look for porn on the internet. even i'm a slave to technology - i get bored, so i turn on the computer. i rely on it to give me means to communicate with people. when i don't want to go out, i know there's at least one person online that i can talk to to pass the time. i can't tell you how many times i've seen people almost have a breakdown when their computer crashes as they're writing a paper. even i've gone nuts when my internet has been down. it surrounds us, envelopes us, consumes us. it's almost to the point where we don't know what it's like to be technology free. i got rid of my cell phone and i was crazy without it, because i was so used to having it at my side.

but the point is this: do we really *need* these things to survive?

in my opinion - no. we don't. not at all. no one knows what it's like without such technology anymore. especially with the internet. i almost wonder if it's having a negative effect on social skills, and all things social really. it's almost isolating us.

i'm gonna quit now. so much i want to say but i can't find the words.

**Ski** · June 10th, 2003, 03:10 AM

Here is a BIG [img]graemlins/star.gif[/img] for Jely and Tyle. Damn you two are making me think WAY to much about a movie [img]wink.gif[/img] I'll need to think on this and post something after work.

**erisesoteric** · June 10th, 2003, 05:53 AM

New theory...

Matrix is actually more fun to discuss and puzzle out than it is to watch...

[img]wink.gif[/img]

**Branflakes** · June 10th, 2003, 07:38 PM

I agree with eris on that last point. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Good points, Jely. Society is already dependent on technology and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Anyone noticed how the Terminator movies deal with the similar theme of machines taking over? The biggest difference is that the machines in Terminator want to destroy all humans, not use them for energy.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 10, 2003 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Branflakes ]</font>

**Exotic Ginger** · June 11th, 2003, 12:00 AM

Those Terminator machines are obviously the dumber machines. Why just kill us when you can use us for food?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 10, 2003 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Gem F ]</font>

**GeekGirl** · June 11th, 2003, 12:44 AM

This is a great discussion.

So, I saw it for the second time last week. One note -- when Link asks his wife/girlfriend "When are we going to be done with this discussion," her reply is "When you're operating another ship." So it seems that she's not asking him to not be on a ship and in the fight, rather that she doesn't believe in Morpheus and the prophecy, which seems not uncommon.

Well yeah, I still don't like the character anyway.

I also would have preferred that the bad blood between Locke and Morpheus wasn't which one was with Niobe. There seems to be ample reasons why they clash -- the prophecy, that Morpheus doesn't respect the authority of the military command, that he leads others to disobey, that both of them seem to have uncompromising tunnel vision. Why does it have to be that a woman came between them? Not to mention that Niobe could and should have been a compelling character without being defined by her relationships with the two men. There's a strong implication that her decisions are tied to which one she wants to be with, and it's such a bad cliche.

But then again, that's exactly how Neo makes his decisions.